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Kibs
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Post by Kibs »

Fenz wrote:For Dosan:

http://nihilum.mousesports.com/en/artic ... _raiding_/

I like this survival spec:

"0-25-36

The ultimate raid buffing spec. This hybrid has all the AP buff talents, but it will sacrifice a bit of your own DPS in order to increase the DPS of the raid members."

----

The ultimate survival thread:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12346-hunt ... ing_2_1_a/
That guide is so hilariously bad it's not even funny. You're much better off going deeper into MM for 4/5 ranged weapon spec instead of maxing TotH & EW (2/3 EW with around 30% unbuffed crit is enough imo). You should be able to keep your mana up with a mana potion now and then and still be able to do very decent dps.
I've been SU ever since they nerfed Scorpids (never liked bm :p) and never looked back - almost always top 5 DPS while buffing the raid with 250+ ap. Sure, SU/MM hybrid builds don't do as much damage as BM - but it sure as hell comes close when properly played.

// edit
For the record, this is what i've been using for a while now. Pretty unconventional, but has worked wonders.
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Fenz
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Post by Fenz »

there are 3 ratios for hunters in the game:



1:1 rotation BM hunters only (considered the "old" ratio)

this is where for every auto shot, you have a one steady shot cast. Because of the speed of a BM hunter, this used to be the only ratio available to them.

steady > auto
steady > auto
repeat....

because this ratio is based on the speed of your autoshot, a faster weapon does more DPS, hence why Wolfslayers and double barreled long rifle are prefered to weapons of higher DPS, but slower base speed. This rotation is also the most mana efficient available.

this is the macro used for this rotation, if you choose to use one:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=# steady shot, !auto shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


# = your paper doll speed

This macro can also be used to time steady shots for the following ratio


1:1.5 rotation, MM, SURV hunters

this ratio means that every time you fire a steady shot and wait for a auto shot to fire before you fire the next steady shot, you slip in a arcane or multi shot. This is possible for MM and Surv hunters, because unlike BM hunters, they usually have a window of more then .5 seconds to cast an additional shot.

Because of the cooldowns , typically you will be able to fit in an additional special after every other steady shot, hence the referenced 1.5 ratio marker.

using the above macro will fire your steady shot right after auto shot goes of, and then after each steady fires you sneak in a special

steady > auto
steady > arcane > auto
steady > auto
steady > multi > auto
repeat....

it will not always follow this particular patter, but you see where the ratio comes from. Typically, 2.9 to 3.1 weapons are best for this rotation, as they leave the room needed for the specials to be fit in.

there is also a variation on the above macro that will sneak these arcane and multi shots in for you, but you have to use 2 setups, one for NON CC fights, and ones for CC fights, since multi f course can be a problem:

NON CC MOB macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=# steady shot, !auto shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] kill command
/castrandom arcane shot, multi shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


# = your paper doll speed

CC MOB macro

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=# steady shot, !auto shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] kill command
/cast arcane shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


# = your paper doll speed



2:3 Rotation, BM Hunters ONLY, (also called 3:2 ratio and considered the "new" ratio)

This refers to the ratio from the new "clip" macro. Because of the new action mechanics, we can now spam steady shot and auto shot will go in intervals to fill gaps when it is available. This produces a roughly a ratio of 2 auto shots for every 3 steady shots. This is still being researched to figure out the exact mechanics and limitations based on weapon speed.

Ideally, the behavior of this ratio is thus:

steady, steady, auto
steady, auto
steady, steady, auto
steady, auto
repeat....

Note:

There are some questions regarding clipping shots with this macro, and it seems that KC forces this issue more, but overall, this setup causes more DPS then then 1:1 ratio, with more mana consumption.
Its main advantage is it takes advantage of the reduced cast time of steady shot. It will fluctuate it's pattern depending on a number of factors, but it still yields more shot frequency, hence more DPS.

The macro for this rotation is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

This macro, like the other 3, is mean to be spammed.
To look at later.
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Phil
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Post by Phil »

It seems that 3:2 ratio for Hunters scales pretty nice with some haste.. there've been a lot of calculations in the various EJ threads with Hunters.

I find it a bit sucky that, as a Hunter, to maximise your dps you have to *spam* (yes, people doing 10 clicks per second with "addons") one macro.. not much fun left ingame, is it?
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Fenz
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Post by Fenz »

Phil wrote:It seems that 3:2 ratio for Hunters scales pretty nice with some haste.. there've been a lot of calculations in the various EJ threads with Hunters.

I find it a bit sucky that, as a Hunter, to maximise your dps you have to *spam* (yes, people doing 10 clicks per second with "addons") one macro.. not much fun left ingame, is it?
Mjah it is the same for most dps tho. I use 2 buttons to DPS.
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Mortleg
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Post by Mortleg »

actually I find it just as easy to manually time my 1:1 rotation as with spamming a macro. But spamming a macro helps if latency is, say, higher than 120ms.

3:2 rotation seems okay, especially with some haste to boot, but without any haste rating I'd rather stick to 1:1, its so mana-efficient that with the proper elixir, mana oil and blessing your mana almost doesnt drop. Also, depending on your weapon hit damage it may be reasonable to include arcane shot on cooldown. (basically, if arcane shot does more dmg on a target, include it, if not, stick with steady shot)
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Fenz
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Post by Fenz »

Mortleg wrote:(basically, if arcane shot does more dmg on a target, include it, if not, stick with steady shot)
You don't need AC if you are BM specced.
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Mortleg
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Post by Mortleg »

well you dont NEED it but it might just give you an edge. every 6 seconds you substitute a shot doing physical damage X with a shot doing arcane damage Y, both have virtually the same impact on the shot rotation. (GCD) I dont see why I should skip out on arcane shot if it does more dmg to my target than Steady. And besides, thats a second button to use while attacking, makes it twice more-interesting :P.
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Fenz
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Post by Fenz »

The main issue is mana since an arcane shot uses twice the mana of a steady shot

Use scorpid sting if you want to use a second button (you should use it anyway).
As a BM. You would be using Steady / Auto in very tight rotations (when your steady shot fires, your auto shot timer should be about ready to fire). If you stick an arcane or multi shot in you will push out your auto shot by 0.5 seconds. This coupled with the fact that as BM you probably don't have a good sized mana pool means you are OOM'ing very early on. When as if you keep to a steady / auto rotation you will last MUCH longer.
If you have JoW up and/or a SP in your group then you will probably have enough mana tho 8)
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Mortleg
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Post by Mortleg »

This is totally correct, if you are trying to add an arcane or multy-shot. I'm talking about something a bit different. The 1:1 rotation is not a strict steadyshot:autoshot rotation but rather a special shot:autoshot. Meaning you can substitute the steady shot with one other special (aimed shot obviously wont do ofc) if it does more dmg and you are willing to pay the price in mana.
Example: fighting a boss, and JoW has a great uptime, and it's obvious I wont be going oom any time soon while manually doing a 1:1 with only auto/steadies. So, I can change to a 1:1 priority. This meaning 1 auto then one special, prioritizing on whichever specials do more damage for you. My steadies hit harder than my arcanes, so I give multi preference, then steady. (Although I often use arcane shot in this situation because it is easier to 'fit in' to the rotation, meaning less of an autoshot clip later down the track, meaning more total dps.)
I am almost late for work, so will continue the post later kk? :>
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Phil
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Post by Phil »

Read his post again about the main issue, AS costing twice the amount of mana of a steady (even worse with a MS afaik), even if it does more damage... ofc in a raid environment, with possibly JoW up it's not much trouble.

There's not much reason to substitute your SS with an AS if it doesn't do significantly more damage.

Note: nubhunter (me) perspective
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Mortleg
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Post by Mortleg »

if it does more dmg and you are willing to pay the price in mana.
:wink: I totally agree with the mana concern, especially since it costs more than twice the cost of steady. Anyways, this discussion prompted me to take some screenshots of my current shots damage and mana cost and some interesting conclusions came out of it, I'm including them below. Also Serpent sting is THE WORST shot you can use as BM.


Image
(note: all tooltips were shot without buffs, except for Aspect of the Hawk - 155 bonus AP)

So here we have all the shots a BM hunter can use in a 1:1 rotation. They all have casting speed lower than the GCD, and we can only fit one of them between two auto shots if we dont want to clip the autoshots in question. As I see it, with my AP and base weapon dmg, coupled with about 600 armor ignore, there's no more point for me to use Arcane shot. Have to do some more testing on bosses, but I think even the fact that physical dmg is affected by armor wont make that much of an impact (bosses are debuffed, armor ignore, etc). Multi-shot however seems the shot to use on cooldown instead of steady, if you have no mana issues and no CC targets are in the vicinity of the taget. From my experience as a BM hunter (thats the only spec I've raided with, except for 1-2 kara runs as Marksman, didnt like it) Mana really isn't an issue past the middle of SSC. With mana oil on your weapon (or your two weapons for greater effect), Mageblood elixir and Blessing of Wisdom, you should have no problem at all for fights shorter than 6-7 minutes, even without switching to Aspect of The Viper. Proper potion use is key of course. Thats not considering Judgement of Wisdom on the target which if present is something amazing, as your auto-shots also return 75 mana per hit, also there is the Efficiency talent if you cant handle it, although Improved hunter's mark directly affects your pet dps, not to mention the whole raid's physical dmg. Also there are Darkrunes, Demonic runes, those little plants from Felwood, Alchemist's stones which are upgrade-able in the next patch, etc. (I won't mention a shadowpriest, cuz I'd rather be with the physical grp if possible, durid 5% crit = yum. )
Ok, I drifted off a bit. About the Serpent sting: You probably see yourself that it is utter crap. It certainly has use in a marksman's or survivalist's shot rotation, as you can add it after a steady if your arcane and multy are on cooldown. But for BM, let's make a little comparison between serpent's sting and the least impressive shot on that picture:

Let's say raidbuffed i get 5% more crit on average, making it to 30%. (27%-33% usualy, depending on paladins, druids, shamans and etc)
I won't bother adding any AP from raidbuffs, as they both scale with AP and even if there was a difference it would be minor enough not to affect final results of this comparison:

Serpent sting: 842 dmg. That's all you get. No crit. Average SS = 842
Arcane shot: 546+30%1256=546+376.8=922.8 (~923) Average AS = 923
(plus, your crit enables a Kill Command, and also makes your pet gain 50 focus for more claws, bites etc)
Not to mention the STAGGERING mana cost of Serpent Sting, equal only to Multy-shot.

And the nature of the 1:1 shot rotation does not allow more than one special shot be fired between two autoshots. In conclusion: Using Serpent's sting is basically equal to shooting yourself in the foot for a Beastmaster. If you feel you have to use a sting, keep Scorpid Sting on the boss. Not sure if 5% less hit is any help to the guy tanking, but I like to think so :)

Anyways thats just my thoughts on the subject, I may have overlooked something, so if you disagree or want to point out errors in my observation, by all means, go ahead :)

P.S.
And yea, obviously arcane shot is not as good as I thought it to be, it was an adequate alternative with worse gear tho, apparently steady shot scales better :>
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Gaar
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Post by Gaar »

what if I say I miss the old aimedshot rotation? this onebutton spamm, well: it is boooooo to the rin to the gizzle
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Fenz
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Post by Fenz »

I ain't leaving without your soul and I am sober this time.
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sneek
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Post by sneek »

http://wowui.worldofwar.net/?p=mod&m=6322

This mod's clean and tiny!
And it supported my suspicions when digging through several combatlogs.
Hunter's Feign Death ability does not show up in the combatlog, nor any resists made by it.

However this mod hooks into the UI error messages that are triggered (out of range, you are stunned, etc) and rings a AUCTION BELL whenever your feign death is resisted as hunter.

It's always active when you install it.
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Mortleg
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Post by Mortleg »

yes, but without overaggroing ppl with no dmgmeters installed wont know what an insane dps hunters have so, no thx.

Nah, im joking ofc, thx for the grat addon Sneek, gonna test it on sunday raid :)
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