MC Reflection

[Mol]

This post is for SM & Odium members and anyone who is interested in reading it.

First of all, I'd like to compliment everyone on a great raid, it went really well, with a new 'first' for killing Garr Arkandor and his sidekick Myca did a good job too, and special grats to Myca for renting Scooby Doo. After doing MC yesterday with DKP for the first time however I've noticed a couple of things that we could improve. I already spoke extensively with Myca about this ingame and we agreed I'd make a post here summing it up with a link to Odium boards to discuss the issues. Oh and btw, please don't bother too much with discussing something in game with the leaders during the raid for too long, because it only slows down the raid, and it's easier to discuss it on these boards anyway


Issues with DKP system

There was some confusion and disappointment, but also happiness and enthusiasm with the DKP system entry yesterday. We laughed, we cried, it was great. Personally I think it worked out pretty well, but there are a few concerns brought up by several people.

Item Availability
Yesterday a Talisman of Ephemeral Power dropped, an overpowered caster trinket that adds 175 to magical spell damage/healing for 15 secs with only 90 secs cooldown.
Technically this item is usable by all casters...but in practice, it would have more use in the hands of a Mage or a Warlock, so there was some discussion, since a Priest won it. Some people suggested we look at the practical use of the item when determining who should roll on it. Sneek came with a suggestion of 'datamining' Thottbot and making a list of items and assign them to certain classes beforehand. Sounds like a great idea to me So who wants to do it?!

Outsiders
The uber caster trinket that was won by a Priest....was won by a Priest outside of the guild, which was very disappointing for our overpowered casters, because they wanted to be even more overpowered. Even though it was sucky for an outsider to win an item of this level of uberness, it wasn't that big of an issue, but I personally would like to add something about this though, because I would hate to see an uber item like this go to someone in a guild with 3 L60s too often, while our casters keep losing.

We are 35 people, outsiders are perhaps 5. We can easily get 5 others, while they can't get 35 others. They should be grateful that we invited them to do something they are possibly not able to do with their own guild. Therefore I think we shouldn't really grant them 'equal ratio' rights. Even though they add 1/8th of the people, and we 7/8th, doesn't mean they put in as much effort too. Our guilds put in the effort of summoning everyone at a specific time, and the leaders organize everyone etc., so I think we do more. So maybe they can get a smaller chance or something, because people will come anyway, supply & demand economics imo. Imagine we have 7 mages and we invite an 8th...he has 1/8th chance. But what if we ask another mage to come, and tell him 'you have 10% chance' instead of 1/8th...he will probably still come. What I am saying is that we have a bit of freedom in deciding the win percentages for outsiders, no 'real' need to give them equal chance Not just because we are powerful and we can dominate their ass and give them a 5% chance to win something, but also because it might be more fair since it is 'our' raid

Another solution for SM/Odium is to get 40 people raiding!! Maybe this can be a motivation for some people, like overpowered Mages and Warlocks, to kick other guildies off their butts to join Molten Core, because it sucks to see an uber item go outside the guild.

Something else that is possible, but perhaps risky, is that we set a minimum limit. For example, if we have 39 people, do we get 1 outsider? Or do we try with 39 SM/Odium? What if the outsider is a Hunter and we only have 1 other Hunter. Do we screw our Hunter by giving the outsider a 50% chance just because he is 1/40th of the people? Decisions, decisions, discuss...

Passing On Items
As you have seen yesterday, people DO pass on items because they don't want them, or want to save their DKP What happens if everyone in that class passes?
A) Do we disenchant an epic item?

Or do we drop it to a lower tier, so 10 points, and see who of the people that passed wants it then? All of a sudden a lot of people want it then I guess
B) So what if all people in a class decide together secretly to pass on the item so it becomes cheaper?

What if there is a player who doesn't have 22 points, but say he has 11 points. All players with 22 points pass, because it is expensive. Then it drops to a lower tier (10 points) and the player with 11 can buy it for 10 then.
C) But what if the players with 22 points would have bought it for 10 as well, but not for 22?

And what if all people with 22 points pass AND don't want to bid, but there is someone with, say, 21 points. The item would have dropped to a lower tier, 10 points, and the person with 21 would have bought it for 10, so he has 11 left. But if that same person would have had 22 points, he would have had to spend 22 points if all other people with 22 points passed, and have 0 left.
D) What about this!?

Anyone know a solution for this? A or B or C or D? I was thinking of a bidding system perhaps below 22 points. If everyone passes for 22 points, you go to 21..20..19..18 etc. (to fix A) So then the people that passed would still have to compete with each other, so no price agreements (to fix B)
Also the person with 11 points wouldn't freely buy it for 10, another person with more points can offer 12 instead of 22, which he can't match (to fix C). And if everyone passes for an item worth 22 points, and there is only 1 person bidding, the item goes to MAXIMUM BID for that person. This means someone with 21 points who is the only one bidding has to spend all his 21 points on the item (which was originally worth 22), so he has 0 points left. (to fix D)

Note that this bidding system is ONLY for items that are 22 points but EVERYONE who has 22 points passes on. ONLY. NO BIDDING FOR ITEMS THAT SOMEONE WANTS. I HATE BIDDING.

I also hate bidding because there are some flaws. I foresee people passing on all items in the future just to bid, so they don't have to spend 22 points. Or agree with their fellow Hunters, Shamans etc to set a maximum bid of 15. So if anyone has a solution to fix these flaws, you're welcome to share!


Issues with raiding (this part is partially sponsored by raid sidekick Mycavycos)

Signing Up
If you sign up for a raid, only do so if you are 99% sure you can come. Because it's only bad for the rest and for our guilds if you sign up and don't show up, because then we have to invite outsiders and give them phat lewts again (see above)

Raid Time
A lot of people go into MC, thinking 'Wow this will take a long time, I better take some AFKs'.....WRONG.
Yesterday it was pretty annoying to have a lot of AFKs, especially people who went AFK because they thought it will take a while, so they autofollow and do something else. This is indeed totally wrong.

Sure we might have started a bit later, but this is also because people signed up and didn't come (see above) so we had to get outsiders. But once we started, everything went pretty smooth and we killed and massacred and died etc. etc. until Lucifron. The only problem was that people went AFK and sometimes we had to wait, which delayed the raid. Yes, that's correct, YOU going AFK is what slows down the raid and increases raid time...so it's the other way around.

I've calculated the time we actually spent killing inside MC, and up until Magmadar it was less than 2 hours. This is as much as an UBRS raid...I don't see people take 30 minute lunchbreaks during UBRS. So don't think that the raid will take long anyway and we are 40 people, so no one will miss me. WRONG. We all have to eat etc., but if you manage your time well, we can do this a lot faster. And hey...if we do this a lot faster, you have more time to do other things later! Arkandor planned a nice 45 minute foodbreak, so it's not like he didn't take that into notice. Having lunch because your parents say so at 16:30 (??) is not really an excuse for me imo, I don't want to sound like an online RPG dictator, but you don't do it in UBRS or Stratholme either, so why in MC?

Really, if everyone just stays focused until the break (just as you stay focused on a UBRS raid) we can do it pretty fast and end earlier so you have more time then OR we have more time to go even further in MC and kill more bosses, because we are getting stronger and better each time.

Listening
MC (or any other large scale raid) requires a lot of coordination. Don't want to sound negative towards WoW, but WoW is pretty 'easy' compared to other online RPGs. You can get away with lot of things in WoW, for which you are permabanned from guild in EverQuest for example Ofcourse EverQuest is an extreme, and I don't want this to feel like a job too, we are here to have fun. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't listen to our raidleader.

Because WoW is a bit easier (easier on the mind too), you can get away with lot of things, especially on the lower bosses, and still win. This doesn't mean you should do them all the time, because some of the bosses you CAN'T beat without listening and paying attention. If we really want to kill Ragnaros for example, we have to be coordinated a bit more, and that's why we have our...leader

Our leader gives us a job, USUALLY IN CAPS, like FIRE AWAY!!!!. This means you can start attacking. If you already did 5000 damage before this command, you are not listening or paying attention. If you are on the wrong target, you are not listening or paying attention. Ofcourse, this is no job, but it's the least you can do, and by doing this, we can make it more fun for everyone. (or that's what I've been told )

So:
- Casters mind your damage. There is no damage contest or anything, you only suck up your healer's mana, so they can't heal the tank properly later on.
- Stay on the right target, messing it up could wipe the raid. If you are unsure of your target, ask the raidleader, or during combat, assist another person in your group that is fighting or casting so you make sure you are not 'alone' on your target at least.

These were the 2 main things yesterday that people complained about

So here it is all summed up, it took me 35 minutes of my life to type this down, and I regret it already, but if you read this, I take comfort in knowing that you spent a lot of minutes reading it too

- Mol

[Late]

I decided to pass on the trinket that dropped, even tho if i hadnt, i wouldnt have been able to roll on it anyway, but that trinket is just as uber for a shadow priest as it is for any warlock, and possibly more so for any mage considering 3 out of an undead priest's 4 decent damage spells take 100% of the 'up to', whereas most mage spells do *not* take advantage of this.

As well as this, the trinket gave + HEALING as well, and if this isnt any indication that a priest should be able to consider rolling, i dont know what is.

I passed on the trinket because it is not useful to me as a Disc/Holy priest, because i dont cast many damage spells in either PvE or PvP, and i would prefer a blanket +healing trinket rather than one that just lasts for 15 seconds, because most big fights last longer than that

Yet another disadvantage to the 3 caster classes is that most items that drop for cloth wearers are suitable for all 3 of us- we have to fight between ourselves for these items, whereas you can see which 1H swords have been designed for warriors, which ones have been designed for rogues, you can see which mail armour has been designed for shamans, which mail armour has been designed for hunters, and which leather armour has been designed for druids. Because of this, we are always going to argue, unless the item either has a huge +STA on it, whereby it's likely warlock, if it has, for example, +frost spells, i.e. for a mage, or if it has +healing, for a priest. That's just the way it is for our 3 classes i'm afraid, and we have to deal with it.

[tabea]

I have not done any MC raid yet but considering the items everyone passes on: Maybe SM and Odium as a guild could roll for it - meaning one of each guild roll for it and the guild which won can decide what to do with it, e.g. giving it to guildies not able to attend, disenchanting.. ?
Imo disenchanting an epic item should only be the very last solution. If really everyone passes on it - people from other guilds should not find this behaviour offensive as -obviously- no one really needed this item.

Frankly, no idea if this is a solution people agree with or / and if it makes sense - as I said I have not participated in a MC raid yet.
So just my two cents on it.

[Fenz]

Now back to your crafting Tabea!

[Skyly]

women should craft while the men fight! (or how was it, Fenz? haha)

[xen]

First, I also agree the raid proceeded very well, congratulations to Arkandor and Mycavycos (and all attendees of course). Trash mob clearing went very smooth and fast (gogo Versus here), and we killed the largest amount of bosses so far (did you manage to kill Geddon in the end?).

Still, there are a couple of points where I think we should spent some time on to improve. Most notably, the add-targetting at Garr. Another point being of course the (already beaton to death ) decision about who can roll on certain dropped items (one problem with this was that first it was said only WL-M-DR could roll on it, and finally a priest won it). We should have a system in place next time on who will decide such things. Either have only the Raid Leader decide, or on the other extreme, hold a vote count. Anyway, we should agree on something beforehand, because it wasn't clear how it should be handled in this case. The last thing is that the raid start time was suddenly changed to 16.00h. I'm not sure when this was decided, but the SM MotD still said 15.00h, so I'd prefer better communication on this part in the future. Finally, it would be cool if we have a post with all the drops in it on the forum, did anyone take notes of this?

---

Tabea, almost all items that drop in MC are BoP, so you cannot pass them along to others. There are some BoE drops, tier1 epic belt and something else of most classes I believe. In the future, if noone in the raid that drops it wants that item, we could pass them to others - if they're willing to pay the DKP cost of course.

Passing On Items
As you have seen yesterday, people DO pass on items because they don't want them, or want to save their DKP What happens if everyone in that class passes?
A) Do we disenchant an epic item?

I would guess so, or let someone sell it (maybe just rand 1-40).

Or do we drop it to a lower tier, so 10 points, and see who of the people that passed wants it then? All of a sudden a lot of people want it then I guess
B) So what if all people in a class decide together secretly to pass on the item so it becomes cheaper?

If you are able to buy the item at a certain tier and "pass" you really pass: you lose the right to "want" it at a later point (for instance, when it drops to a lower tier).

What if there is a player who doesn't have 22 points, but say he has 11 points. All players with 22 points pass, because it is expensive. Then it drops to a lower tier (10 points) and the player with 11 can buy it for 10 then.
C) But what if the players with 22 points would have bought it for 10 as well, but not for 22?

See above. This might create a small window for abuse, but I doubt it will come into play.

And what if all people with 22 points pass AND don't want to bid, but there is someone with, say, 21 points. The item would have dropped to a lower tier, 10 points, and the person with 21 would have bought it for 10, so he has 11 left. But if that same person would have had 22 points, he would have had to spend 22 points if all other people with 22 points passed, and have 0 left.
D) What about this!?

Borderline situation, seems abit unfair, but you will always have this sort of situations. Besides, having just 21 points can be bad as well, since you don't have first rigths to roll on items you want.

[Fenz]

We dropped Geddon on Sunday. Bloodrazor won Felheart shoulders, and some warrior gloves went to Drakzul.

Brutal fight with the living bomb. People not paying attention if they are the bomb caused a few unneeded casualties but in the end we got him

[Zilver]

Yea finally getting geddon was a relief. I was gonna quit after that last try. But still there are some serious noobs walking around, it must have like 3 to 4 times that someone beside me was the living bomb and he just stood there and did nothing. I think i must have given first aid to the 2 priests in my group like 16 times, just because of that.

Still in the end, great ressing was done, and very nice pickup after versus died, 3 backup tanks died including me (hihi) before versus was back on his feet and tanking Geddon again.

Maybe we can get some better tactics from the raid leader what to do when the MT goes down. I feel the tanks took over nicely yet the healers didnt know who to heal which lead to the 3 backup tanks going down really fast.

[Late]

It's not necessarily a question of us healers not knowing who to heal, zilv, cause we discussed it in the priest-exclusive channel (!!)

The problem i felt that i had when versus died was that the baron was a) running around everywhere which meant i had to leave my position to be able to heal the person who was tanking and b) he was warping on my screen, which was also confusing

[Zilver]

I think we need to discuss how to better position the healers then in case MT goes down again.

[Mol]

I don't think my point about the passing on loot is really clear. What I am pointing at is an inefficient loot distribution (gogo management accounting)

Let's say Erazel and I both have the same amount of points. Nightslayer Shoulders drop...they are nice...we both want them...BUT. The next boss is Gehennas which can drop the far more uberdererer Bloodfang Bracers, so we rather spend our points on this. Result: Nightslayer Shoulders get disenchanted, even though two Rogues are there that want and need it, but because of their points they'd rather save them.

This is a risk of DKP I know, and also a problem with bind on pickup, but the disenchanting solution is kind of crap imo. Personally: If Molten Core loot drops that can be used by those in the raid it should NEVER be disenchanted, this destroys the whole purpose of Molten Core raiding.
Also if the Bloodfang Bracers don't drop, a perfectly good item has been disenchanted that could have been used. If you have >44 points this should not be an issue ofcourse, since you can roll on both then.

A system should never get the upper hand over the players participating in it. (a problem we had with football as well )

So any solutions other than mine are very welcome, since mine has some probs with it as well.

[Fenz]

So, what do you want Mol? Just give it away because nobody bids on it? If you do not bid you do not want it enough and it gets dissed. Can maybe solved with this both (secretly) bidding points for it, highest bid get's it and the points get deducted

[xen]

One thing, was it or was it not allowed to win more than one item per raid (since I'm planning on getting 44 points to have a buffer for good items)?

[Septarch]

Nice post mol.

Well if all ppl pass maybe you could make a leader roll on all the ppl who can use the item, and give it to the person who wins.

We will never have a perfect system, but dissing items that ppl can use is not a good solution for sure.

Well i have only been on 1 mc raid, so i don't know anything about how it's organised.

But organisation and leadership is needed, it's needed in mc and in the odium guild atm. We certainly have members for a odium/sm only raid, but it's still hard to get enough ppl. This may be better after the summer.

Assigning items to certain classes is always a source for argument.
I play shaman which is a hybrid class, meaning i can use alot of different stats and items depending on my build.

Right now i need lots of int and +healing; I’m full restoration spec.

This could be a source of anger amongst casters.

Well hope we can make full sm/odium raid soon.

[sneek]

Purple are rare enough as it is, no need to rip them to pieces and get a crap amount of blue shards from it.

Though I too have a preference to which items I'd like to get first - methinks that everything's worth having.