SYSTEM!

[Mol]

Ok, since i wanted to propose a system, but not spam the other threads, I'm making a new thread about....the TIER SYSTEM.

Let's start with the basics:

Why do people want a DKP system?
They feel they are not rewarded for their effort, while others benefit from their effort

Who wants/doesn't want a DKP system?
The people that put in a lot of effort People that don't put in a lot of effort on purpose (I am hoping we don't have these in our guilds) and people that have less time to spend on raids like others do.

Advantages of DKP system
People are more likely to get rewarded based on the effort they put in

Disadvantages of DKP (this is where it starts)
- If you miss out on 1 or 2 raids, while your 'competitors' don't, you move down the line in points, and you will most likely have to wait for these other people to get their item first, assuming you all want an item that drops quite often.

- Items that don't drop so often...people with the most points (even though they only have 1% more than the #2) will win this...and the #2 can wait 2 years until it drops again.

- Administration....have fun calculating points for 50+ people. Have to roll anyway on the first couple of raids, lot of argument about point distribution too.

- Demotivating for new players the first couple of raids if their class has a lot of people active.

- Pickup people...do they have DKP points?!

Ofcourse, the fairest thing is if people get rewarded for their effort evenly, but this is very hard to realize in practice. So basically there are 2 'groups' (someone already posted this, forgot who, too lazy to read it again): people above the effort/reward line (more effort, less reward), and people under the effort/reward line (less effort, more reward)

I also do realize that the system needs to change so that people get rewarded more equally to their effort, but the disadvantages of DKP scare a lot of people.

The Tier System
This system is used quite a lot as well in other games, have used it before as well myself. It basically means all players in every class are divided into 'ranks' called tiers. These tiers are based on activity in PvE raids (or whatever you want to base them on). When an item drops, the master looter picks it up, and then everyone that is allowed to can roll on it....with a small change.

People that are in tier 1 (lots of effort put in) do /random 100 for example
People in tier 2, that put in a little less effort, do /random 90. This means that people in tier 1 are more likely to get it, but people in tier 2 aren't without chance!

Let's compare it to the disadvantages of DKP, using a Shaman example:

- Missing a raid once or twice....ok you might move down a tier, or maybe you won't even move down, based on the tier-rules you set. But even if you do, you still have a chance to win the item, but just less chance than someone who DID attend all raids. Let's say a mob drops Shaman leggings everytime....4 regular Shamans, 3 who attended all raids, 1 who attended all but one raid. This Shaman has to wait until the other 3 get their item most likely according to DKP, and this will perhaps demotivate him to come on the next 3 raids if there are no 4th, 5th, 6th Shaman that are close to him in points anyway. With the tier-system, this Shaman has a chance of winning anyway. If an item drops really often, then the tier-system doesn't differ much from the DKP system though, because everyone will get their item in time.

- Items that don't drop so often...this is where the difference between DKP is notable. Imagine we all eat superpower bananas and on our next MC raid we happen to defeat Ragnaros. The power fades and we won't be able to kill him for another 5 years. He drops Uber Shaman Chestpiece of Overpoweredness. Our poor Shaman that only missed 1 raid won't get this item, because 3 other Shamans didn't go on vacation when he did. With the tier system, even if he is in a lower tier, he gets a chance to roll and win, albeit a smaller chance. The others get to /random 100, but he gets to /random 90 at least and get a shot at it.

- This also kind of fixes the problem of demotivation for new players. The new players have to earn lot of points first before they can win an item. With the tier-system at least they get a shot every raid at an item. And even if they win, it won't upset the other regulars hopefully, since there is a small chance, and this guy has it now, and next time they will get it again. The chance of another new guy coming in and snatching it again on the next raid is very low anyway.

- Administration....don't have to keep track of individual points earned and spent etc. Just have to keep track of the tier a player belongs to.

- Pickup people...just make a special tier for them and warn them in advance about their chances of winning. Also it makes more sense that they have a smaller chance of winning....after all it is OUR raid and THEY get invited. If they don't agree, WE can always find someone else...THEY can't find another MC raid that just happens to be on

This system is flexible too....we can decide for ourselves the rules of this system, for example when someone moves up or down a tier. Or what /random every tier gets. Maybe you only want to use 4 tiers of /random 70 80 90 and 100. Or perhaps we think 10 tiers is better of /random 100 95 90 85 etc. etc. Can even say that for some items like Uber Shaman Chestpiece of Overpoweredness you need a minimum tier.

Yes I know there is still a factor of chance involved here, and I know that (particularly the more active) people want security in their MMORPG-life, but it solves a lot of problems imo, and we all know it's fun to roll anyway

Feedback please!

[Shataz]

this was actually a really a very good idea, according to me. that would make it more fair then a DKP system

[Mycavycos]

I like it. Although i think it would have to be modified. think it has to be a more distinct difference between tier 1-2 otherwise the same thing will happen again, with ppl loosing rolls over multiple raids. its a complicate matter. Bah getting tired of debating. Personally i dont care but i can guarantee we wont even be able to do mc if we dont get some kind of system for loot going soon. But your system might be the way to go mol. Its certainly easier to keep track of then a point system.
(drunk and tired willl check back tomorrow)

//myca

[tabea]

Little brother - you made me smile when I sat in front of my comp and read your thread.

Sounds like a fair and very practible way to deal with the issue. I am definately a tier 2 player as I have a sometimes time-consuming job, a family and some not-computer-related hobbies (considering this maybe even a tier 3 player). Additionally, players from other guilds wouldn't have any problems to join SM / Odiums raids as well as long as they accept being a tier 2 player - at least if they only attend every now and then on a raid.

Frankly, all the dkp-systems proposed in the other threads are imho far too complicated. I don't wanna even imagine what will happen when the points are calculated wrong or at least someone thinks his or her points are calculated not correct.

I can live with any dkp-system as well as with /roll 100 for all. Although I must admit I find it a bit weird that some people say they won't go on a raid without a dkp-system. I can understand that people want to receive a reward and they are looking forward to receive a new cool weapon... On the other hand I go on a raid to have fun, beating evil mobs no one has killed before, helping my guildies and if I am lucky to get a new item. I have done some ML raids in DAoC over and over again just because other people needed it and with the full knowledge that there is less than a chance of maybe 5% to get any new item. But well, I am not a hardcore player so I guess I am far too down to earth in some way to be unhappy about not getting any uber items in a computer game.

Nevertheless, it has to be taken in account that with Mol's system there is still the possibility that "very commited" players do not get the loot they want - although they benefit from their commitment as they have a better chance to get the item due to the tier system. Therefore, I am curious which system will be chosen as the solution to our loot problems.

[Shataz]

well tabea. i dont demand a dkp system either, but i want my guild to keep going, not be crushed by this. and a couple of hardcore players vill leave if we dont get any system, thats why. =)

[Skyly]

this is the way to go if we shall have one...

Tier > lootwhores DKP

[sneek]

Fairest system seen so far Mol

[xen]

Any system that uses rolling at its base is biased to the ones that roll the most. What does this mean? Instead of giving all the people who join up for a raid a similar chance of getting items, it will give people who can roll on more items an advantage.

Example, say I've been attending many raids now, and I have managed to acquire three out of eight of my set items. Assume that In the next few raids, all eight set items drop again. Since I will pass on the three I already have, the expected number of items I will get is less than the person who doesn't have any items at all.

This might be seen as an advantage, as it will help new people get more items faster, thus giving them an incentive to join up. Personally however, I think it is more fair to have a system where people get the same amount of items over time. This will not be the case with a system based on rolls, and hence I prefer a point-based system.

[Fenz]

This might be seen as an advantage, as it will help new people get more items faster, thus giving them an incentive to join up. Personally however, I think it is more fair to have a system where people get the same amount of items over time. This will not be the case with a system based on rolls, and hence I prefer a point-based system.

Eh?

[flame]

Hello,

I am not a mmorpg veteran so please bear with me.

Being black and white, I have to disagree on the fairer way being the way Mol suggested.
The fairer is def. a DKP system since you reward whoever puts the most effort in. And lets face it 4/5 hours in an instance is an immense amount of time and "effort".

Now the system Mol suggested is sounds like the most appropriate for the situation we are in, having outisders and not being a single guild.

Have we bothered to get a full idea from everyone in both guilds about a merge? I mean a serious poll, with some serious cons and pros?

When we talked about it, all I heard was "too many shamans, too many warriors"!!

[xen]

Eh?

Hm?

[sneek]

Love to lace threads with the obvious, so here I go again!

Systems other then Mol's basically guarantee that a person who has seen 40 purple drops in his/her raiding career will get a purple after 40 drops.

Why do I finger 40 drops in this example? Assumed is that a person always raided with a full Molten Core raid which totals 40 people.
It basically boils down to this: Everyone gets a purple, then has to accumulate more work to get a second, kind of like we're doing right now with "only one epic per run", only then spread out even more equally.

Therefor people who are in favor of such a system see it as (-duh-) fair.
Kind of eliminates the feeling you get for running scholomance 30 times to get some kind of hat you need to complete your blue class set.
Still don't have mine - and frankly I don't quite care for a dead wolf als a helmet (though I'd roll if it dropped, lootwhore and all!).

However, it also slants in favor of those who have seen the most purple drops - since they get first pick because they are top dog first.
This puts casuals off.

Point systems also remove rolling and dumb down getting loot to basic office work (punch in, punch out, do overtime, etc).

---

Basically, systems like DKP are used to keep those who are very active and organize raids, support raids and in general keep raiding MC possible inside the guild(s).

Knowing that quite a few of us don't really have a huge interest in getting purples from MC -- the flipside being a very nice comment made in a Warsong Gulch match we did some time ago; "Teamwork + Epics > Teamwork alone".

Besides, I know for a fact that at least a handful of mages in Sinister Ministry have begun to drool over the Sorcerous Dagger drop.

[flame]

Indeed Sneek,

I was being black and white and in the end, the casual player, will casually use his purple drop.
There is no way I can justify (in a fair way) someone who commits to be there and contribute ALL the time for the success of the raid (and success of the drops) not to be rewarded accordingly or leaving it to chance. That will also make people leave, and in all fairness the raid will loose a lot more from a person that is there all the time than from someone who is casual. This is not an opinion, just common sense and one of those crap facts!

I dont agree it will feel like work, since the raid happens once a week, and if it feels like work doing a high level instance, then it feels like work getting a purple item. In the end I cannot answer for the people who think that way regardless (the fair is that you have a chance of a purple proportional to the amount of time you have put into the team effort, it is bad enough to have the randomness of drop %).
I enjoy the raids and the high level PVE.
I really enjoyed the fights and the whole team work thing,especially on last week's Magmadar fight. It worked a treat.

But I can't help myself feel let down when I have put so much time on these raids and not being able to even "expect" to get something out of it. It will put me off.

------------

Meant to say about PVP > PVE, we have experienced the other day a WSG fight where we were raped by a team with better gear than us.
I love PVP but I am serious out when fighting someone with better gear, be it PVP ranked gear or MC. At the moment I see PVP grinding as work a lot more than MC will ever be. AV anyone? :S
In this frame of mind MC attendance also means less cp's as I will be busy raiding, which does not help the cause a single bit.

So when people are not interested in MC loot, I can def. understand but then going to grind AV or WSG for cp's puts it all in perspective as I find it a lot more mind numbing (especially the way I end up doing it, with pug's in WSG or 5 ppl against 40 in AV).

[Mol]

Example, say I've been attending many raids now, and I have managed to acquire three out of eight of my set items. Assume that In the next few raids, all eight set items drop again. Since I will pass on the three I already have, the expected number of items I will get is less than the person who doesn't have any items at all.

Yes ofcourse, but this is the same in DKP (or any other system) as well. If you have the same amount of points (or even more) than someone else who uses your set, you can get a max of 5 items anyway, whereas the other can get 8. I don't really get the point Why is it bad if you already have 3 items and someone else has 0?

If you go to UBRS and you have 7 out of 8 set items when someone else has 0, ofcourse the other person has a higher chance of getting an item, this is nothing new.

But I can't help myself feel let down when I have put so much time on these raids and not being able to even "expect" to get something out of it. It will put me off.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't propose this system just to help the casual player, not at all. I don't like it either when someone wins an uber epic and never uses it but plays their alt

But what I do realize is that there are 2 groups, the casuals and the hardcores, to give them easy names. And I also realize that BOTH GROUPS are interdependent. Neither can do a raid alone.

So far, most people have focused on how much it sucks for the hardcores right now that they don't get items accordingly to the effort they put in. But with a DKP system it is the other way around, the hardcores will be happy since they get first looting rights basically, whereas the other, casual players, might stop showing up if they don't have a chance of winning an item unless they put in just as much effort. That's what I'm worried about with DKP, that instead of the hardcore people leaving, the casual people will leave. Also a lot of the people who are 'in the middle' will be screwed too (if they miss a couple of raids etc)

With the tier system you might get unlucky and frustrated too if you don't win a roll, but at least the chances are improved for the hardcore people, so it's not totally random. Maybe you can call it 'controlled randomness' With regular /random you have a good chance of losing 10 rolls in a row to casual players, but with the 'improved rolling', the odds of you winning are much higher. Imagine rolling against someone who has a /random 80 when you have /random 100. Their maximum is 80, and on average, 1 out of 5 of your rolls is >80, so on average you will STILL win 2 items if the other person keeps rolling maximum.

On the short run, DKP offers more guarantees to hardcore players, but in the long run, the tier system (as with all chance statistics, regression to the mean) will result in the same. The variance on the short run just is higher than with DKP.

One might say that no one cares for casual players leaving (from a raid point of view, since they don't use purple items), but I do care, since I don't just play this game for loot and raids like some people already commented Obviously the more active people like us post here and discuss this, and DKP favours the hardcore people the most, so naturally like Sneek said, they are all in favour of it.

Rolls: casual player ++ hardcore player --
DKP: hardcore player ++ casual player --
Tier-system: (hopefully) everyone +

And we all live happily ever after with the carebears eating strawberries in flowerfields etc.

[Late]

I think the problem with any point system is the discouragement that people who are, say, <55 in our guilds, or who do not play much may feel with it.

If all you want is uber loot, then imo you are possibly in the wrong guild- go join BlackouT or PoW like Virt did. If you want to have more fun in the raids and not have arrogant little @%$£s moaning at you because you made a tiny mistake on your first MC run ever, then SM /Odium raids are more suited to your style. Obviously MC runs are very much about loot, but i had a really good time yesterday even before i won my item. I would have no problem going another 6 or 7 MC raids before i could even be allowed to roll again, because you have to do a heck of a lot more healing in MC than in other instances, and healing is what i like best

While I think that the looting system could possibly be improved, for example i got my first epic item yesterday even though i only joined the raid just before we killed Luci, I don't see the point in us having the same system as other guilds on the server because, simply, we are very different guilds.