awaiting Kozu's reply in a nice abstract saying how bad of an idea it is to allow "casual newbies" this experience of considered end-game
The Risen Mandate
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TheWarriorKing
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his arguements are kind of crap
does blizzard want players to skip ssc/tk? Or why do you offer BT quality stuff for frigging BADGES?As in,heroic mechanar->najentus?
No.In raiding you can't jump tiers.People should go karazhan then gruul then ssc/tk and then bt.Or what happens about gruul and t5 instances? Did they not put effort in designing them ? I find ssc/tk in 2.4 fine and reasonable in difficulty way of "gearing up" so you are prepared for bt.3 tier tokens per boss,which after lots of nerfs are doable without extreme requirements.
and to the final question of him;
Handing welfare items though is PROVEN to overall set raiding back.This is an undeniable fact and yet people use such arguements to justify the "dumbing down" of the game as the blogger says.
Think of what kind of an impact did the new pvp rewarding system to raiding for a moment.Does raiding need another similar blow?
does blizzard want players to skip ssc/tk? Or why do you offer BT quality stuff for frigging BADGES?As in,heroic mechanar->najentus?
No.In raiding you can't jump tiers.People should go karazhan then gruul then ssc/tk and then bt.Or what happens about gruul and t5 instances? Did they not put effort in designing them ? I find ssc/tk in 2.4 fine and reasonable in difficulty way of "gearing up" so you are prepared for bt.3 tier tokens per boss,which after lots of nerfs are doable without extreme requirements.
and to the final question of him;
Lift of the attunements apart from a slap to the face to every guild that went through it was a good thing,it was too much of a struggle for non hardcore raiding guilds.What do you think? Should Blizzard be opening these areas to a larger percentage of players, or should these high level areas be the exclusive preserve of the raiding elite?
Handing welfare items though is PROVEN to overall set raiding back.This is an undeniable fact and yet people use such arguements to justify the "dumbing down" of the game as the blogger says.
Think of what kind of an impact did the new pvp rewarding system to raiding for a moment.Does raiding need another similar blow?
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TheWarriorKing
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Guilds that are not raiding high level instances struggle finding members simply because the gear is inferior to the pvp gear by much.
While I don't think gear as a sole motive is right ,it certainly helps finding people.
Of course a guild which is on bt does not have a problem like this at the moment but what about those guilds on gruul/mag? And in the next patch,what about the guilds on ssc/tk ?
edit: and im not saying the old pvp system was better but this one ain't too bright aswell.But better than the old one.
While I don't think gear as a sole motive is right ,it certainly helps finding people.
Of course a guild which is on bt does not have a problem like this at the moment but what about those guilds on gruul/mag? And in the next patch,what about the guilds on ssc/tk ?
edit: and im not saying the old pvp system was better but this one ain't too bright aswell.But better than the old one.
I have not seen any proof of this. If anything the PvP gear should help guilds get ahead faster in the lower instances imo.Guilds that are not raiding high level instances struggle finding members simply because the gear is inferior to the pvp gear by much.
I ain't leaving without your soul and I am sober this time.
You're both talking about something different here.
What Powerslave's concept is that the introduction of really good PvP items specifically for PvP has ruined a lot of potential people of even considering PvE/Raiding as a way to get more powerful in PvP.
The days that you just HAD to PvE in order to own really hard in PvP are over.
Even the Honor Grind delivered shitty gear in the end; barely on par with Tier 2. And then only six slots worth of gear tops.
Which I agree with - but at least now you have a (small) pool of people to choose from that actually want to raid because of the content and experience rather then to get that big ass twohander by which they can look cool and own in the battlegrounds.
What Fenz' saying is that getting an Arena based weapon for PvE isn't that big a deal.
Sure S3 weapons are on par with Warglaives (unless you complete the set bonus), but who cares really?
What Powerslave's concept is that the introduction of really good PvP items specifically for PvP has ruined a lot of potential people of even considering PvE/Raiding as a way to get more powerful in PvP.
The days that you just HAD to PvE in order to own really hard in PvP are over.
Even the Honor Grind delivered shitty gear in the end; barely on par with Tier 2. And then only six slots worth of gear tops.
Which I agree with - but at least now you have a (small) pool of people to choose from that actually want to raid because of the content and experience rather then to get that big ass twohander by which they can look cool and own in the battlegrounds.
What Fenz' saying is that getting an Arena based weapon for PvE isn't that big a deal.
Sure S3 weapons are on par with Warglaives (unless you complete the set bonus), but who cares really?
Considering top guilds farmed BT for several months... and there are lots and lots (actually all the good guilds) more or less progressed in there, a change in lifting attunements and giving similar gear to people won't really harm, imo. It's only to progress faster with new players (be it rerollers or w/e, I doubt guilds will consider gearing them in greens in MH/BT/SWP, neither will they run tier5 instances to (attune +) gear them...
I stand by that opinion, people who complain about these changes and consider their effort (several months ago) as wasted are just bitter... if it hurts you so much that (more) other people get goodies (as "welfare") then you might want to overthink that ego view... I guess such people are also mad if they increase the unemployment compensation because those "lazy bastards" don't deserve any money... no matter the circumstances, hmm..
I stand by that opinion, people who complain about these changes and consider their effort (several months ago) as wasted are just bitter... if it hurts you so much that (more) other people get goodies (as "welfare") then you might want to overthink that ego view... I guess such people are also mad if they increase the unemployment compensation because those "lazy bastards" don't deserve any money... no matter the circumstances, hmm..
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TheWarriorKing
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i think your example is kind of flawed,it's not like everyone wants to raid and he can't ,people simply cba spending time,gold,and actually work as a team to achieve a goal
I don't get why would you reward someone who does something really simply like grinding karazhan or 2 heroics per day with end game rewards...If they want to make 5 man worth of doing they might aswell put 5 man instances that require consumables ,strategies,gear and tons of repairs to complete and not these scrub 5mans that can be completed by an untrained rabbit simply by bringing 2 cc
And let's not get started with karazhan...
It's just into my mind that in RPG's gear=reward for effort
and @ sneek ,what i mean is ,people get discouraged to gear up from pve because pvp offers high quality gear while losing,if you get my point.
They might introduce wipe badges though or something to help the pve guilds a little *giggles*
and before someone spouts some crap about me not wanting other players to get gear: Keep in mind that I was in a guild which struggled for months and eventually disbanded cos of scrubfriendly pvp rewards and idiotic prequests that require you to run every new attune through 2 raid instances just to try and progress
edit:And i dont mean pvp players should raid to get their items,for thrall's sake no...AFKing in av while downloading sweeney todd should not be rewarded with gruul equivalent items though.Guess what I'm doing right now? yes av is boring and I get epic set on my alt by playign with 1hand and red ping!
I don't get why would you reward someone who does something really simply like grinding karazhan or 2 heroics per day with end game rewards...If they want to make 5 man worth of doing they might aswell put 5 man instances that require consumables ,strategies,gear and tons of repairs to complete and not these scrub 5mans that can be completed by an untrained rabbit simply by bringing 2 cc
And let's not get started with karazhan...
It's just into my mind that in RPG's gear=reward for effort
and @ sneek ,what i mean is ,people get discouraged to gear up from pve because pvp offers high quality gear while losing,if you get my point.
They might introduce wipe badges though or something to help the pve guilds a little *giggles*
and before someone spouts some crap about me not wanting other players to get gear: Keep in mind that I was in a guild which struggled for months and eventually disbanded cos of scrubfriendly pvp rewards and idiotic prequests that require you to run every new attune through 2 raid instances just to try and progress
edit:And i dont mean pvp players should raid to get their items,for thrall's sake no...AFKing in av while downloading sweeney todd should not be rewarded with gruul equivalent items though.Guess what I'm doing right now? yes av is boring and I get epic set on my alt by playign with 1hand and red ping!
There are 3 groups of players in my eyes:
Firstly we got the top guilds like Nihilum and what not, with the only purpose of killing stuff as fast as possible. I don't know if they are having fun doing their thing, I guess some do and some don't. But I dare to claim that the biggest motivation for this kind of people is the egopush they get when killing a boss as worldfirstzomg. Nothing bad at all, can be explained with the natural reward system of our brain.
Then we got the "average" raiding guild, as which I see SM for example. Those guys are playing a fair amount of time but don't build their whole life around the game.
As last group there are the real casual people. Maybe raiding a bit, most likely not or atleast not on a regular schedule.
The actual discussion going on isn't the first of its kind, there were whiners around at any point Blizzard introduced something. Mostly the whine consisted of either „QQ this is too ezmode“, said by the pros, or „QQ too haaard“ by the casuals. Best example is the whining about Nax. Lots and lots of consumables had to be farmed, and even after having handled that issue, most of the guilds still weren‘t able to get anywhere near a clear. Now complaining about such a problem is totally valid imo - why should a game designer develop plenty of content for a tiny part of the playerbase, while the vast majority never gets to step foot into it?
But if the top guilds on the other hand start to complain about casual people getting gear of equal or only slightly lower quality DECADES later in an easier way, the whole thing is getting ridiculous. Why did top guilds mainly raid? Ah yes, to get world firsts. Now how do those so called welfare epics affect them? They don’t, not at all. I highly doubt that those epics remarkably help any guild PvE wise. Even if they did, who cares about the 8972. Romanian guild killing Hydross? Noone. Will people with welfare epics be able to compete with top guilds in the future? Hell no. Unless they are selfish pricks not wanting anyone near them with similar gear, hardcore raiders shouldn’t give a shit about the whole thing.
The bigger problem is that Blizzard didn’t find a smooth way to balance this game yet. From my point of view it is impossible. You can’t totally satisfy both the hardcore and the casual player at once. But for a game as WoW you need both. The pro pulls the whole thing forward, the casual fills your bank account. That’s why Blizzard is trying to keep the top guilds busy with hard encounters (which as you can see are still way too easy) and meanwhile keeping the casuals entertained. They design something hard, then they nerf it, nerf it, nerf it, support the ones being behind. Rinse and repeat. Win.
Firstly we got the top guilds like Nihilum and what not, with the only purpose of killing stuff as fast as possible. I don't know if they are having fun doing their thing, I guess some do and some don't. But I dare to claim that the biggest motivation for this kind of people is the egopush they get when killing a boss as worldfirstzomg. Nothing bad at all, can be explained with the natural reward system of our brain.
Then we got the "average" raiding guild, as which I see SM for example. Those guys are playing a fair amount of time but don't build their whole life around the game.
As last group there are the real casual people. Maybe raiding a bit, most likely not or atleast not on a regular schedule.
The actual discussion going on isn't the first of its kind, there were whiners around at any point Blizzard introduced something. Mostly the whine consisted of either „QQ this is too ezmode“, said by the pros, or „QQ too haaard“ by the casuals. Best example is the whining about Nax. Lots and lots of consumables had to be farmed, and even after having handled that issue, most of the guilds still weren‘t able to get anywhere near a clear. Now complaining about such a problem is totally valid imo - why should a game designer develop plenty of content for a tiny part of the playerbase, while the vast majority never gets to step foot into it?
But if the top guilds on the other hand start to complain about casual people getting gear of equal or only slightly lower quality DECADES later in an easier way, the whole thing is getting ridiculous. Why did top guilds mainly raid? Ah yes, to get world firsts. Now how do those so called welfare epics affect them? They don’t, not at all. I highly doubt that those epics remarkably help any guild PvE wise. Even if they did, who cares about the 8972. Romanian guild killing Hydross? Noone. Will people with welfare epics be able to compete with top guilds in the future? Hell no. Unless they are selfish pricks not wanting anyone near them with similar gear, hardcore raiders shouldn’t give a shit about the whole thing.
The bigger problem is that Blizzard didn’t find a smooth way to balance this game yet. From my point of view it is impossible. You can’t totally satisfy both the hardcore and the casual player at once. But for a game as WoW you need both. The pro pulls the whole thing forward, the casual fills your bank account. That’s why Blizzard is trying to keep the top guilds busy with hard encounters (which as you can see are still way too easy) and meanwhile keeping the casuals entertained. They design something hard, then they nerf it, nerf it, nerf it, support the ones being behind. Rinse and repeat. Win.
The reason why the guilds is so mad, is because they look at it, as a job. Work XX hours, gain XX money.
Casual: use 1-2 days, to get his badge belt which is almost equal to 'random nonset T6 belt'.
Hardcore raider: Use weeks, and lots of preparing, planning - to get his belt, which is only tiny little better.
I completely agree with the raiding guilds, about this welfare stuff is going too far. Fair enough they implement this arena system, so you can get some fairly decent items (even for PvE), which is far from comparable to PvE items, but still a good start off - if you wanna reroll.
I mean imaging, you had two completely new players to this game. And player A was going for badge belt, and player B was going for badge belt.
We assume they level at the same speed so they hit 70 at the same time.
Player A, will start farming badges right off, in pug KZ groups/heroic pugs.
Player B, will have to convinse a "shitty" guild to take him into some shitty raidinstance to gear him up. Then when he's above that stage, he'll need to get into a NEW progression guild. After that, he'll start needing to focus more (as in doing hard encounters) and progress with the guild - which mostlikely take 1-2 months. Then he needs his belt to drop, which is mostlikely around 7-9% drop, as in he'll need around 10-11 lockouts to get it. So lets sum up:
Gearing up phase = +2-3 months
Progressing phase = +1-2 months
Dropchance = +3 months
Total = ~7 months.
If we assume Player A does a KZ run, he'll have his belt within 2-3 days (60 badges).
Lets say Player A's belt is about 10% better. So, if you would want to balance this system, then it should take 6,3 months to get the badge belt.
So, Player A, use 69 times more time, on getting something that's around 10% better - got the logic now?
The reason, why I decide to split it up like this, is simply because that's the way WoW is looked at (rankwise, like zNow described).
Casual: use 1-2 days, to get his badge belt which is almost equal to 'random nonset T6 belt'.
Hardcore raider: Use weeks, and lots of preparing, planning - to get his belt, which is only tiny little better.
I completely agree with the raiding guilds, about this welfare stuff is going too far. Fair enough they implement this arena system, so you can get some fairly decent items (even for PvE), which is far from comparable to PvE items, but still a good start off - if you wanna reroll.
I mean imaging, you had two completely new players to this game. And player A was going for badge belt, and player B was going for badge belt.
We assume they level at the same speed so they hit 70 at the same time.
Player A, will start farming badges right off, in pug KZ groups/heroic pugs.
Player B, will have to convinse a "shitty" guild to take him into some shitty raidinstance to gear him up. Then when he's above that stage, he'll need to get into a NEW progression guild. After that, he'll start needing to focus more (as in doing hard encounters) and progress with the guild - which mostlikely take 1-2 months. Then he needs his belt to drop, which is mostlikely around 7-9% drop, as in he'll need around 10-11 lockouts to get it. So lets sum up:
Gearing up phase = +2-3 months
Progressing phase = +1-2 months
Dropchance = +3 months
Total = ~7 months.
If we assume Player A does a KZ run, he'll have his belt within 2-3 days (60 badges).
Lets say Player A's belt is about 10% better. So, if you would want to balance this system, then it should take 6,3 months to get the badge belt.
So, Player A, use 69 times more time, on getting something that's around 10% better - got the logic now?
The reason, why I decide to split it up like this, is simply because that's the way WoW is looked at (rankwise, like zNow described).
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TheWarriorKing
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QFT.Although what I'm saying is...what if instead of the epic welfare s1 kit we had that blue kit there was in s2 and beyond for like half the honor cost cos the time sink is ridiculous,and have arenas giving progressively more points as the rating goes up in a much larger degree than now,to support the "legs go win " way of thinking instead of the "lets afk av" and "lets lose 10 games for pts" that is the situation now.zNow wrote: They design something hard, then they nerf it, nerf it, nerf it, support the ones being behind. Rinse and repeat. Win.
anyways my 2 sents
You are comparing the wrong people, this discussion isn't mainly going on between the casual player getting gear through farming badges and the casual player doing low content instances.
The ones whining the most are guilds that first cleared BT 9 months ago, which always were part of the top raid roster in the world. Owners of the best possible items in this game should _not_ care about welfare epics. Because those aren't changing anything really, it only looks as they would. The casuals will never ever be able to compete with the hardcore guilds, no way. But Blizzard has to give them something from time to time to keep them happy, to let them feel that they're still part of the game, that they didn't completely forget about them.
Furthermore the term „welfare“ epic is totally wrong imo. I don’t know the exact badge price of items, but it must be quite large. Now this is by no means easy to achieve for a casual. Mostly his playing schedule doesn’t allow to really farm heroics and low content instances for badges anyway, so it will still take alot of time for him to get one item, not to speak about gearing him completely up in badge items.
Bringing PvP gear into discussion is nonsense. With the introduction of resilience Blizzard found a nice way to make it useless for PvE. Only the weapons are helpful. Do they help any guild progress remarkably faster? I don’t think so.
The most important thing about the whole topic is that the system does not change. It’s only a small correcture made by Blizzard (again). The epics are only a motivation boost for the casuals to keep playing the game. It doesn’t bring them to one level with top guilds. Even if casuals get themselfs decked out completely in BT equivalent gear, which is doubtful, their PvE progress still isn’t guaranteed. You need a good working guild and good understanding of your class to be able to clear stuff. With the upcoming Sunwell Plateau top guilds will once again be separated from the casuals. Everything will start freshly.
Last thing I want to add is that the effort to obtain items always has and will be decreased over time. Player A farming item 1 in september 07 will have to invest more time, more consumables, more will. But for the blood and tears he sweats he gets his stuff FIRST! While 1 year later player B can farm item 1 with much less effort. You pay for the privilege to kill bosses first, to obtain items first, to explore content first. That’s why it’s nonsense to complain.
The ones whining the most are guilds that first cleared BT 9 months ago, which always were part of the top raid roster in the world. Owners of the best possible items in this game should _not_ care about welfare epics. Because those aren't changing anything really, it only looks as they would. The casuals will never ever be able to compete with the hardcore guilds, no way. But Blizzard has to give them something from time to time to keep them happy, to let them feel that they're still part of the game, that they didn't completely forget about them.
Furthermore the term „welfare“ epic is totally wrong imo. I don’t know the exact badge price of items, but it must be quite large. Now this is by no means easy to achieve for a casual. Mostly his playing schedule doesn’t allow to really farm heroics and low content instances for badges anyway, so it will still take alot of time for him to get one item, not to speak about gearing him completely up in badge items.
Bringing PvP gear into discussion is nonsense. With the introduction of resilience Blizzard found a nice way to make it useless for PvE. Only the weapons are helpful. Do they help any guild progress remarkably faster? I don’t think so.
The most important thing about the whole topic is that the system does not change. It’s only a small correcture made by Blizzard (again). The epics are only a motivation boost for the casuals to keep playing the game. It doesn’t bring them to one level with top guilds. Even if casuals get themselfs decked out completely in BT equivalent gear, which is doubtful, their PvE progress still isn’t guaranteed. You need a good working guild and good understanding of your class to be able to clear stuff. With the upcoming Sunwell Plateau top guilds will once again be separated from the casuals. Everything will start freshly.
Last thing I want to add is that the effort to obtain items always has and will be decreased over time. Player A farming item 1 in september 07 will have to invest more time, more consumables, more will. But for the blood and tears he sweats he gets his stuff FIRST! While 1 year later player B can farm item 1 with much less effort. You pay for the privilege to kill bosses first, to obtain items first, to explore content first. That’s why it’s nonsense to complain.
Your whole argumentation is flawed Snowy, since you don't refer to the single thing which made guilds like Risen (as stated..) quit: considered "elite" players feel devalued because "lesser" people (be it activity, skill, or simply their environment) get gear, almost of the same level, decades later, with the "simple" investment of grinding KZ for weeks, or running several heroics daily (I guess this ain't the easiest thing for these "scrubs", but this might be my view) unlike them who spent hours of wipes, lots of money and time!
Please also see the opening of Lvl60 PvP gear to the vast majority of the player base in the end of vanilla WoW, or even more obvious the publicising of endgame boss tactics / videos (which should have been a reason for all top guilds to quit this freaking game a long time ago).
Sorry if people with ("odd" to put it nicely) opinions feel offended - but if you rate your personal game experience based on other people there can't be found nicer words
Please also see the opening of Lvl60 PvP gear to the vast majority of the player base in the end of vanilla WoW, or even more obvious the publicising of endgame boss tactics / videos (which should have been a reason for all top guilds to quit this freaking game a long time ago).
Sorry if people with ("odd" to put it nicely) opinions feel offended - but if you rate your personal game experience based on other people there can't be found nicer words