SYSTEM!

[flame]

And we all live happily ever after with the carebears eating strawberries in flowerfields etc.


---------------

hehe you made me laugh Mol!

I didnt want to come across as I dont care about the casual player!
I really like the people I am in the guild with and I wish sometimes I had the time to raid more with some of the ones I dont know well enough.

We are talking about a raid that happens once a week which I really enjoy being part of (and this is not tied up with the loot but with the amount of time Prinz dies), so far we have not communicated enough to find the most suitable times to do this anyway which makes it hard for everyone to even get a fair chance to attend.
I am assuming here we are using some kind of system only for MC, not counting on those I have heard where you swap points for arcanite bars, etc... This is what I call a system made for hardcore players...

As far as I know some people might not even want to spend 5hrs inside the same instance, this in itself should be an indication they have no desire to benefit from it.

It sounded by reading the DKP system (and please bear with me on the fact I have not been exposed to it that much) that everyone will have the same chance of getting an item depending on the times they have attended. Since we are all exposed to the same %drop, I cant see a flaw in it.

On a realilstic situation like, the lack of players/classes we have, 2 guilds instead of one, outsiders, your systems is def. a much better one, but still unfair to the person who has spent more time on these raids (and I would like to point out again that even with Prinz gory deaths into the equation, these people need to be respected if they decide not want to do it again). Something they will have to live with or join another guild or whatever (something that for me is not really an option).

I will welcome any additions to a fairer system than the one we have now, since I would sincerely like to progress in terms of some kind of ubberness, I will have to decided soon if I would like to take the PVP side (and risk dying of boredom) or PVE and be upset a fair amount of times.

[Fenz]

Mol for president!

In the end I will rather be Fenz with decent gear in SM (or SMOdium )instead of guildmember 0233 with ubergear in guild X.

Roll proposal 0001:

Tier 1 /random 20 100
Tier 2 /random 00 080

Whatever happens I will probably be gaming for (hopefully) alot more years with quite a few of the current SM members. If we only played for loot we would have dissolved years ago. What helps that the SM'ers worship the ground i walk on!

Anyway interesting discussion. Discuss on Wayne!

[flame]

I think the problem with any point system is the discouragement that people who are, say, <55 in our guilds, or who do not play much may feel with it.

If all you want is uber loot, then imo you are possibly in the wrong guild- go join BlackouT or PoW like Virt did. If you want to have more fun in the raids and not have arrogant little @%$£s moaning at you because you made a tiny mistake on your first MC run ever, then SM /Odium raids are more suited to your style. Obviously MC runs are very much about loot, but i had a really good time yesterday even before i won my item. I would have no problem going another 6 or 7 MC raids before i could even be allowed to roll again, because you have to do a heck of a lot more healing in MC than in other instances, and healing is what i like best

While I think that the looting system could possibly be improved, for example i got my first epic item yesterday even though i only joined the raid just before we killed Luci, I don't see the point in us having the same system as other guilds on the server because, simply, we are very different guilds.

I dont know where in all of what I posted you saw: all you want is ubber loot mate. I do enjoy the raids with the guild and I doubt it I wont at anytime soon for the forseeable future, all we are talking here is about a purpose in game which, in the end allows you to enjoy it more. There is this thing called PVP which is ruled a lot by what kind of gear you have,which is becoming a big part of this game, especially after you reach lvl 60.
In the end if you want to have any chance of winning (which it happens to be great every so often) you will have to commit and make sure the time you spend playing the game has this simple reward attached to it. Or at least a fair chance. This is what this conversation is all about for me really.

The same way I understand your views in not being that interested in loot and being happy with coming in a raid before we kill a main boss and win a roll, I just dont think that is fair. And also that the fact you are not that bothered with it refelcts exactly what I said earlier, that maybe perhaps you are not bothered in what that ubber loot will do for your character and how much you will enjoy being at least at pair with other players in PVP. And still, I am not going to suggest you moving to an RP server.

[sneek]

I can agree with Laté, however after doing Molten Core for 20 times or more you might begin to lose the excitement in putting a dart in Magmadar's tail-end or the thrill of plucking and offtanking the salamander adds.

Then loot primarily becomes the carrot in Molten Core.

We've lost two members to PoW because of loot issues and some have their opinions about it.
However you feel about it, be it /shrug or /sad, those two were quite the assets to have in Molten Core.

Some members from Odium have stated carefully that there's rumbling in their ranks as well -- this is why you'd want a system in place to appease those.
This has been mentioned by several folks from Odium as well, both on in-game #smodium and here on these boards.

I really have no clue on how to recruit or identify potential members that fit in the mindset of SM let alone Odium - so losing people dedicated to keeping repair bots up, organizing/leading a 5-hour tour or managing the drops as loot master will be a severe blow to contuining our campaings into Molten Core.

I'm ambivalent ("ganz egal") about a loot system in MC - I'll go with the flow.
I am, however, worried about the continuety of these raids.

[Fenz]

There is this thing called PVP which is ruled a lot by what kind of gear you have,which is becoming a big part of this game, especially after you reach lvl 60.

Bit offtopic but the few times we really lost big in CTF it wasn't because the other team had better gear. Alltho it didn't help us that they had better gear . What made us lose was a lack of communicating, people fighting the wrong targets etc. And maybe they just had better tactics then us (with 5 Goddamn pallies ). Espessialy in CTF you need to get lucky (5 pally on an organized alliance team will hurt us a lot more then 5 rogues f.i.) Getting better gear will mostly help us in PvE imo.

[prinso]

We've lost two members to PoW because of loot issues and some have their opinions about it.

the "loot issues" with virt were, as i understand it, that he wanted 1 guaranteed warrior item per boss that he tanks. the logic in that escapes me :P

anyway, i think i'd actually like mol's system the most, even though it doesn't matter to me much either way.
i think it'll also be less of a problem once we get to go further in MC in one go. Because that way if we kill 8 bosses, and all 8 bosses drop a mage item i'll have a guaranteed mage item because all the other mages will have to pass ( even sooner probably because we don't usually have 8 mages )....now if only they'd fix caster itemization..... :)

oh and nerf king for winning that robe on his first raid! :P

[Zilver]

Finally read the whole thread, sjeez you people can talk
I'd like to add my comment to this as a casual gamer. So far i've only had the plesure of being able to attend 1 MC raid so far. I did win an epic, but even if i didnt i had a great time. Still the thrill of being able to win something like that was curiously amazing. And i think that if i knew that i would have next to no chance of winning an epic because of a system that awards activity, i wouldnt even come along. To me its just a waste of time, i might as well have some fun pvpíng.

In the long run you'll lose a lot of players like myself to not coming along to MC if you get a system like that. Might i just add that the difference for hardcore players and casuals players in winning loot is that a hardcore player will always have more chance since they attend more MC's than a casual would anyway.

Still its sad to have a thread like this at all, its just a game ffs

[flame]

Suddenly a subject which seems to bother a few people which put a lot of time into the game is a sad subject? great fcuking input!

I really cant be bothered with this subject anymore.

[prinso]

@zilver, errrm you wouldn't attend a raid that you can't get loot out off, yet a discussion on what looting system to use is sad? owwwwwk

[sneek]

Well at least Zilver's post hits the core of the issue we're having atm

Though this might come as a surprise to you Zilver, seeing how fast you leveled, you're not an as casual gamer as you claim

[Kingeling]

Having read the posts I think I agree with prinz for a change:)

In my first MC raid yesterday I was amazed to see the master loot setting and I never imagined that a system like this was allready operational.
Appareantly though this doesn't cover the need of some ppl who did a lot of instances allready, but do they realise they had the same chance as someone playing it first, only many more times?

My ideal situation would be an SMOdium only raid with the same system we had yesterday.

This said by someone who only had 1 MC run offcourse..

[prinso]

Appareantly though this doesn't cover the need of some ppl who did a lot of instances allready, but do they realise they had the same chance as someone playing it first, only many more times?

That is exactly the problem for some people. They had more chances and lost out every time against people who joined for one raid only.
See it like this: person A works at your company for 10 hours, person B for 1 hour, yet person A's salary is transferred to person B :P

The inherent problem with a random system is that it will only even out for all people after a couple of years, because of the frequency you can do MC and the drop rates for items.

So some people want there to be an equal reward for time spent.
Personally i don't have a problem with the current /rand system myself as i'm not that drooling for items :)
Mol's system seems the best to me though if you want something that gives the hardcore a bit of a higher chance to win items while still keeping the casual interested.

[tabea]

"person A works at your company for 10 hours, person B for 1 hour, yet person A's salary is transferred to person B "

well, I do not think this comparison works, prinz. /evil cow grin

All players get their salary - as salary would be the regular payment - like all the "usual" loot and coins they get during such a raid.

I think some players want a guaranteed bonus - so the uber loot item would be the bonus - which usually is not guaranteed but dependent on your successful performance. So players who attend more often ask for a better chance (or a guarantee?) to get a rare loot drop. Therefore, they do not work for free (as suggested in your example) BUT it might be that the bonus is awarded to someone else - who has not worked less hard to make it a successul raid but who has spent less time on previous raids.

I like Mol's system as it is understandable and easy to handle. Frankly, the dkp-system sounds a bit like the German tax system and believe me that is somthing very very very very very evil! - on the other hand you can live with it although you do not like it ..


[/list]

[Mol]

Flame, Zilver didn't mean it that way, he just meant that this is just a game, don't take it personal

It's also hard to classify someone as 'hardcore' or 'casual', it's not as black and white like that, there are gradations, and that's why a system makes everyone happy I think.

Today when talking in guildchat I made a comparison to a tax system, and I'll explain it here as well.

See the 'hardcore' players as the rich people, and the 'casual' players as the poorer people. Instead of taxed on input, everyone is rewarded according to their input.

DKP can be compared to a right wing tax solution...everyone gets taxed (in WoW: rewarded) a percentage of their income (in WoW:effort in raids)

Tier-system can be compared to a left wing tax solution...the rich get taxed a little more relatively than the poor, meaning the hardcore players have a little less reward relatively and the casual players have a little more reward.

Reasons for tier-system for me:

* DKP and the equal reward for effort are flawed and instead of benefiting everyone equally, which sounds fair, it benefits the rich a little more, as you can see in the posts above.

* I am a leftist communist socialist greenpeace bastard and we should burn capitalists and american flags, oh...and tax the rich a little more in order to preserve our society. Because that is what our guilds are...a society. And in society imo, the 'rich' can easily spare a little more to benefit the 'poor'.

So there is the basic choice...do we choose a loot system that benefits the rich a little more or the poor a little more. I'm sure that everyone has their opinion on that and that we should just vote on it. Just like to remind you AGAIN that we are a society as a guild, and that I see no problem with the rich giving up a little more for the poor, but that's me personally, that's not the guild speaking btw

[prinso]

All players get their salary - as salary would be the regular payment - like all the "usual" loot and coins they get during such a raid.

I would hardly call the 1gp you get for killing a boss a reward :P
Each boss has about 39gp on him, and the trash mobs have nothing on them afaik. All useful loot ( ie essence of fire ) is also random'd off, so...

If you factor in reg costs and repairs i usually lose about 10gp per MC raid ( if we don't die too often and we kill enough bosses :P ) . So without an item it means i'm not getting "paid" for my time. Apart from just having fun, which is what it's all about luckily :P