SYSTEM!

Virtu · Post by **Virtu** » 12 Jul 2005, 01:25

prinso wrote:
We've lost two members to PoW because of loot issues and some have their opinions about it.
the "loot issues" with virt were, as i understand it, that he wanted 1 guaranteed warrior item per boss that he tanks. the logic in that escapes me

que? Ofcourse it made me sad I kept losing al the rolls, but that statement about me goes a bit far. (I got tons of time, and I love to get ''max'' out of the game and since I realy don't like pvp, I had to leave.) In PoW i still have to do alott of runs without getting loot, though I know I will get what I want eventualy since I build up my points. This is the only reason I left, and im reading al this just because I still care for SM / odium.

Like I said before, I wish you al the very best.

greetings,

Virt.

flame · Post by **flame** » 12 Jul 2005, 01:39

tabea wrote:"person A works at your company for 10 hours, person B for 1 hour, yet person A's salary is transferred to person B "

well, I do not think this comparison works, prinz. /evil cow grin

All players get their salary - as salary would be the regular payment - like all the "usual" loot and coins they get during such a raid.

I think some players want a guaranteed bonus - so the uber loot item would be the bonus - which usually is not guaranteed but dependent on your successful performance. So players who attend more often ask for a better chance (or a guarantee?) to get a rare loot drop. Therefore, they do not work for free (as suggested in your example) BUT it might be that the bonus is awarded to someone else - who has not worked less hard to make it a successul raid but who has spent less time on previous raids.

I like Mol's system as it is understandable and easy to handle. Frankly, the dkp-system sounds a bit like the German tax system and believe me that is somthing very very very very very evil! - on the other hand you can live with it although you do not like it ..

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I really do agree that a DKP system is too heavy, especially for a 2 guilds and a bunch of random players in each raid Tabs.
Mol's suggestion is a much better one for this type of setup, i dont think i can stress this enough!

I was trying to be down to earth about the fact that these raids are at risk of not happening again if we keep the loot rules the way they are.
If we think the subject is something different from this we are foolling ourselves a bit here.
The irony of it all is that I truly believe that for a casual player this is not even a big issue, since, in the end... whatever really.

Hardcore being used to describe something that happens once a week is a bit much, the same way it is call rich to the people who so far came out of this without any loot, while calling poor to the ones who have pocketed some shinny items! I mean we are seriously confusing things here!

IMO Mol is a dictator in disguise.

Late · Post by **Late** » 12 Jul 2005, 18:24

[quote="flame]The same way I understand your views in not being that interested in loot and being happy with coming in a raid before we kill a main boss and win a roll, I just dont think that is fair. And also that the fact you are not that bothered with it refelcts exactly what I said earlier, that maybe perhaps you are not bothered in what that ubber loot will do for your character and how much you will enjoy being at least at pair with other players in PVP. And still, I am not going to suggest you moving to an RP server.[/quote]

Well, tbh flame, i actually implied that it wasn't totally fair that i should win the item from Magmadar by saying the system could be improved

I'm far too busy actually playing the game and doing things in real life too ( :O ) to really spend ages considering a system for just one instance that we will be doing once every couple of weeks, i'll leave that to you clever people and i will honestly be happy with anything you decide because you will decide on the best interests of the guild

If I wanted to be 'at pair' with others in PvP, then trust me i wouldn't be playing a disc/holy priest, and although loot is important i am delighted with the items i currently have and i wouldnt be distraught if i never won any more items of prophecy. If MC becomes too boring for me, then i wont go, it's not like other instances where you might go to help a guildie for a couple of hours even if you dont like that instance- i'd rather do some CTF with other SM members or help my RL friends level up.

Regardless, if you see any posts i make on this forum, and indeed anything i say in discussions on guildchat, i usually play the devils advocate and take sides even if i dont agree with them, cause i think that getting the full picture of something like this is the most important thing. Saying 'i still wont suggest you move to an RP server', which is exactly the opposite of what you are implying, is a bit lame too imo, mate.

Post by **Fenz** » 12 Jul 2005, 18:37

and since I realy don't like pvp

Erm is pvp required in PoW? because I see you there (= CTF) everyday

flame · Post by **flame** » 12 Jul 2005, 18:40

Unf. this subject has got to me more than I thought.
I also tried an play devil's advocate with the purpose of being able to save the MC runs (which I really enjoy for most of the reason you mentioned on your post). Anyway, I have made my views known on it.
It wasnt my intention to patronize your post but to illustrate a point.
That being said I hope we all have fun regardless.

Cya in ctf.

SerXes · Post by **SerXes** » 13 Jul 2005, 16:16

Well havent posted in this before but thought id five my input as well.

I believe what most people isto have a fair system where you actually get something for putting in effort and you still have a chance to get that supermega piece of eq even though you dont have as much time to spend.

I dont like dkp systems based on biddingsystems because that will just lead to sad faces due to some people not able to get loot as well as being imo unbalanced.

Where i disagree with Mols system is the fact that its pure rollbased u can still go for 40 raids and still lose every roll while some people get items all 3 raids they go for. This imo have the possibility of giving some people sad faces.

What im mostly looking for is more of a loot distribution system that evens out the loot distribution. From my point of view the system Mycavycos linked to is very good in that aspect as well as pretty simple. With some minor tweaks this could be made into a system that could work for our combined raiding.
The tweaks I would like to see in this system to make it viable is a lowering of the startingpoints needed making it more pleasant for the casual gamer and also a system for handling randoms (the system proposed in another thread for this sounded nice).

This system doesnt give different points for different loot instead you get points per boss making it pretty simple to keep track of.

This would produce a system where people who put in more effort are the ones who will recieve more loot but the casual player will get their share as well. This I hope is what will put happy faces on all.

// Serxes

Mol · Post by **Mol** » 14 Jul 2005, 04:49

Where i disagree with Mols system is the fact that its pure rollbased u can still go for 40 raids and still lose every roll while some people get items all 3 raids they go for.

Yes this is true, but the chance is very very very small. In fact, it's just as small as the chance of going on 40 raids and winning every roll. Probably the chance of winning every roll is even higher

The average is that you win on 20 raids and lose on 20 raids, assuming your win/lose chance is the same.

What I'm trying to say is that in the long run, over lot of rolls, the roll-chances will balance themselves out. On the short run however, after maybe 2-3 raids, it will still be possible that you didn't get anything.

agrabush · Post by **agrabush** » 18 Jul 2005, 22:42

I don't think I understood this properly.. is this a "agra get back and start playing long before norway looses it's sun and all the girls start wearing clothes again, or you wount get any more gear" thread?

Mycavycos · Post by **Mycavycos** » 19 Jul 2005, 06:30

I hope people arenÃ‚Â´t angry with me and arkandor for completely discarding mols and other dkp systems entirely . Loot system has been debated endlessly the last few weeks to no end. So we decided to introduce our own regardless of what people thought about it in a very friendly dictator style

Since itÃ‚Â´s we that will be hosting the raid people can just choose to not raid with us if they cant stand the system.

But i want to point out a couple of things about the purpose of the system we are going to use.

First it is to distribute the loot more evenly across all raid members. this is the most important aspect of the dkp system imo. A bunch of people seem to think we want a system that allows a few raidmembers to just pick anything they want from mc every raid. This will not be the case i can promise you that.

Second the system will give people who go to alot of mc raids will get a slight advantage over the people that join in once in a while. This is ofcourse to reward dedication and attendance (aswell as reducing the luck factor some). without the mc regulars we would all be one of the "random joes" in someother guilds mc run. The choice is easy.

Third i believe this system keeps the spirit of fairplay (this has absolutely been the biggest issue and worry for the no sayers in odium) while at the same time pleasing the ones screaming for a lootsystem. Other suggested systems have been either too elitist (where ppl can buy/bid on tiems and autowin for example) or the opposite (for example mols tier system where you still roll on all items and chances are you go home with nothing every single raid) this is my opinion ofcourse.

And lastly if parts or all of the dkp system proves to be faulty or outright wrong and unfair we will just adjust or scrap the whole thing

We will just go back to the usual reliable random rolling again hoping luck will disappear from the world

Well im rambling on and got a bit carried away here

Just want to point some things out i think people might have misunderstood.

Over and out! //Mycavycos

Ps. Oh and agrabush keep working on your tan and think of all us loosers doing Molten core while you get all the women for yourself! Epic drops will eventually visit you inventory anywayDS.

Mycavycos · Post by **Mycavycos** » 19 Jul 2005, 07:19

Oh and one more thing. I really would like to have some feedback on what might be an addition to the dkp system that soon will start. If we reward all players that "enter" the system with 22 dkp we will eliminate completely the fear of having no chance to get loot if you are new or cant play most weekends.

This will effectively mean that everyone will get one epic item eventually and that the items are distributed across the whole raid from the start. The downside is that it will take a longer time before anyone can improve their chances of getting an item through the use of accumulated dkp. personally i like this idea alot. Im really worried that some people feel discouraged to come to mc knowing they need dkp to roll for items, in particular casual players new guildmembers and those who just hit 60.

Over and out

Post by **Vigz** » 19 Jul 2005, 08:33

Sounds ok to me Myca. And yes excluding people from raids just because they wear greens was a really bad rule from Zak. Most of the people in the raid will have good enough gear to make up for the few that don't and to punish people that just made 60 or just can't play 24/7 to get every good item for their class is ridiculous.

agrabush · Post by **agrabush** » 19 Jul 2005, 09:10

Mycavycos wrote:...Ps. Oh and agrabush keep working on your tan and think of all us loosers doing Molten core while you get all the women for yourself! Epic drops will eventually visit you inventory anywayDS.

great..

Mycavycos · Post by **Mycavycos** » 19 Jul 2005, 09:29

I agree vigz, im sure a few people with green items isnÃ‚Â´t gonna make us suddenly fail against magmadar for example.In fact the rule is so silly i canÃ‚Â´t see why anyone would even waste energy thinking it out

Really surprised zakna rather let all you SM ppl drop the raid than changing this weird rule, he was not even considering changing it

//myca

Post by **sneek** » 19 Jul 2005, 11:22

Actually I kind of like this system.
It's sort of an extension of the "one epic per raid" concept - only then averaged over all the raids a player has attended.

There's still rolling involved because of item tiers - between those people that are up for their "one epic per raid".

Offering up every new face to the system a fresh chance to get an epic seems to me like a good way to encourage folks to use the system.
Slightly worried about one-day-flies however, though time will tell.